Friday, August 15, 2008

Michigan Muslims Attack Freedom of Speech



A group of Imams from the Islamic state of Dearborn Michigan got together to protest a radio show that featured fiery Egyptian Coptic priest Zakaria Botros as the Imams were getting numerous complaints from fellow Muslims about the show.
The reason for the protest was the usual, they did not like what Botros had to say about Mohammad the terrorist. Once again there are special rules for Muslims. They constantly attack the freedom of speech of non-Muslims, but use our country's freedom of speech to have pro-Hezbollah rallies. I wonder if those that complained happened to be among the 15,000 American Muslims who attended the last rally? These are 15,000 people that do not belong here.


Priest irks community with bizarre, offensive comments about Islam
By Khalil AlHajal - The Arab American News
Friday, 08.15.2008, 02:00pm




Local religious leaders believe they've successfully convinced a local AM radio station to force a regular guest on one of its programs to tone down his intense, often strange commentaries critical of the Islamic faith.


Egyptian Coptic priest Zakaria Botros, known around the world for his controversial theological rants about Islam, had been featured regularly for weeks on a Chaldean Christian programming broadcast by WNZK (690 AM), enraging many with frequent assertions that Islam's Prophet Mohammed, was, among other things, a homosexual.


Muslim leaders feared the weekly programs could cause tension between local Christian and Muslim communities, and sought out talks between interfaith leaders and the station owner about pressuring producers and the host of the show to keep the more radical commentaries off the air, said Ghalib Begg, Chair of the Council Of Islamic Organizations Of Michigan.


"It seems the hate speech has stopped," Begg said.


After hearing furious complaints about the program for weeks, a group of Sunni and Shia Imams gathered in an emergency meeting in Dearborn on July 28 to discuss the issue, deciding to pursue a resolution through interfaith representatives, Begg said.


"As much as this show was not a good thing, it brought the Imams together," he said.


The group continues to look to create positive outcomes from an ugly situation.


Begg said they are planning a meeting with station executives on Aug. 20 to work out a way to buy airtime for interfaith programming.


"Our objective now is to do something positive," he said.


Owner of the Southfield-based radio station, Sima Birach, confirmed that he is "working on this case," but did not comment further as of press time Thursday.


Email messages sent to two area Coptic priests were not returned.


Another local Arab Christian leader, Fr. George Shalhoub of St. Mary Antiochian Orthodox Church in Livonia, said that Botros' outbursts may come from a bitterness felt by many Egyptian Christians, who he said have struggled to practice their faith in that country for years.


"Historically, Christians in Egypt have been persecuted," he said.


Religious life for Copts in Egypt, said Shalhoub, whose congregation is made up primarily of Palestinian, Syrian, Jordanian and Lebanese Americans, is much harder than in other Arab countries with large Christian populations, where, he said, there is mutual respect and tolerance between Muslim and Christian groups.


"Father Zakaria is fueled by desperation, but no one should be condemned by other people's faith," he said. "Just leave him alone and he'll go away… There are fanatics among Christians. There are fanatics among Muslims. There are fanatics among Jews. If we pay attention to fanatics, we become fanatic… Don't forget we have freedom of speech here. No one can silence another by force."


Shalhoub said that radical religious rhetoric is only fueled by the outrage it causes and that problems arise between Christians and Muslims locally only when members of the two communities try to prove each other wrong about their faith.


"We have wonderful relationships with our Muslim brothers and sisters here," he said. "They don't need us to legitimize their faith, and we don't need them to legitimize our faith… They know who we are. If somebody's on the radio, turn it off," he said.


Begg said that ignoring Botros was considered as an option in the first meeting among local Imams in July.


"They know this is not the first time someone has done this," he said. "It's not so much about some guy making noise. Their concern was the average guy on the street. It's not good for relationships… We need to stop these kind of divisions that are being created. It's not healthy for the community."


Begg, a co-founder of the dialogue organization Interfaith Partners, said local religious leaders have worked hard for years to build relationships with each other.


"This guy is doing the opposite," he said about Botros.


A second option the Imams first considered, he said, was to "bombard all the advertisers" supporting the program, putting real pressure on the producers with the threat of financial consequences.


In the end the group decided to assemble a committee of interfaith representatives to express their concerns to the station in a way that would create relationships rather than burn bridges.


Begg said a diverse group of people that included Chaldeans participated in communicating their indignation Botros' most divisive commentaries, which at times included strangely detailed theories about the Prophet Mohammed's sexuality.


Imam Baqir Berry, of the Islamic Institute of Knowledge, one of the leaders who coordinated the discussions among religious leaders and with the station, said that because of a real fear of tension between communities during times of heightened fear and animosity toward Islam in the US, Botros could not be ignored.


"This is really dangerous," he said. "When he's defaming all those people in this community, they want to speak out. We cannot just close our eyes to it."


Berry said he was impressed with the receptiveness of station owner Birach.


"He promised to make them stop defaming the Prophet," he said.


Berry and Begg said the Christian programs on the station, while still featuring theological discussions that might include criticisms of Islam, seem to have cut out the offensive, inflammatory elements, taking on a more respectful tone.


They said they would continue to monitor the shows, one of which airs every Wednesday from 3-5 p.m.


"And we would do the same thing if someone comes out demonizing Jesus or (denying) the Holocaust," said Begg.

Link to Article

59 comments:

Al Closson said...

Islamism is Fascism. But it's followers, unlike say, Hitlers followers are at their core gutless little pansies.

This is in evidence everywhere you care to look. They cry like babies at the slightest criticism or, work themselves up into a hysterical lather over the same.

Their so-called warriors collapse when confronted by actual warriors.

But, what is to be expected from the followers of a false religion founded by a pedophile with the temperment of a spoiled 5 year-old.

Christopher Logan said...

Hi Al,
I agree. Muslims can say whatever they want about non-Muslims. But when someone criticizes them, then whine like babies.

Tom said...

Lesson from my training in the U.S. Army:

Muslim law allows males to use "underage" males [those without facial hair] for sexual purposes on Thursdays. Yes, their law specifies Thursdays. Also, some towelhead armies, including some units in Iraq, will have what is known as "the ninth member of the squad" attached to an eight-man squad. This member is said to simply be a "servant" to do chores for the squad. Yes, and Bill Clinton was discussing dry-cleaning with Monica Lewinski.

Christopher Logan said...

Tom,
Thanks for that interesting information. Our govt is clueless when it comes to Islam.

I look forward to more of your comments.

American Muslim, not Muslim-American said...

"Muslim law allows males to use "underage" males [those without facial hair] for sexual purposes on Thursdays."

What kind of dumbfuck comes up with this shit? And if some moron believes this crap, he'll probably believe that Jews use blood of Christian babies for Purim cookies. Those Islamonazi imams are a bunch of radical degenerates, but you're not doing anyone any favors by lumping all Muslims into that category. It probably feels good to shoot your mouths off, but you should try to use your brains once in a while, you might just like it.

Anonymous said...

Here we have another friendly Muslims. Just what the country needs more of.....

Anonymous said...

To the American Muslim,
The world is moving past the fantasy that "moderate" Islam is coming to the rescue. It has not happened for 1400 years and it will not happen.

Anonymous said...

And there is the problem. It is true that there are many aspects of Islam that have been exaggerated by some.
However, when reading the Koran one comes across numerous passages that are not exaggerations, but actual teachings.
There also also appear to be literally hundreds of strange
"interpretations" of Islam that individual Imam's espouse.
Yet we hear few, if any, Muslims &/or Imams clearly and vocally condemning those strange interpretations. In fact, their silence appears to condone them or at least it shows that no condemnation lends to acceptance of them "if one can get away with it."
Islam is really a problem for Americans because we believe in the separation of church & state.
Since Islam is the Koran & Sharia, then political Islam is the Koran & Sharia.
In America there can be but one law, the Constitution. If that is unacceptable, then I suggest one goes to a nation that permits various legal systems.
Just do not expect Americans to permit such deviations.

Christopher Logan said...

^^^^ I applaud this person. If you cannot accept our laws, do not come here. Stay or move to an Islamic country. You will be happier there.

RL Esteves Sr said...

wow-how ignorant. I bet most of you idiots support Israel as well. The "military" training speaks for itself-towlheads-no wonder so many of our guys are coming back in pieces or in bags. If they actually allow idiots like you in the military, it's strictly as a sheer volume thing,in other words-your life is worthless to the same people that you put your life on the line for.It's usually idiots like you that suck on the barrel of a gun down the line because they're too stupid to know what they're angry about. Probably too stupid to get a job in the real world,huh?

Mike said...

Good post though most of your commenters are arguing faith and NOT freedom of speech. I mean, 'does Islam do this or that to this person or that on Thursdays? Geez, come on guys!

The point is that while we are arguing the finer points of buggery and who may practice it and when, our rights are being eroded away by those who would take and use them against us!

Islam needs to grow up some and stop imposing itself on those who don't agree with it. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make it 'hate speech'.

And as for the media... show some ballz, huh? Stand up for your and our rights! Don't be intimidated by some little guy with a bedsheet wrapped around his head!

Anonymous said...

If these "people" of Islam do not like what goes on in "MY COUNTRY" the "UNITED STATES of AMERICA" then they can "PACK" their bags and go back to where they came from, because NO ONE here is keeping them here!!!

Anonymous said...

Fr. George Shalhoub said, "...Don't forget we have freedom of speech here. No one can silence another by force."

Shalhoub's well parsed statement should concern all of us. No one has the right to deny someone freedom of speech through ANY illegal means or by getting laws passed that are unconstitutional, either. Shalhoub's obviously well-considered "by force" qualifier re: stopping freedom of speech is disturbing on multiple levels.

There is absolutely no reason for Shalhoub to use that "by force" qualifier in the statement unless he has some other scheme in mind to suppress or control someone expressing their opinion.

Anonymous said...

Piece of Shit Muslim Bastards trying to force their way of thinking on America! Go back to bum fuck Egypt and take your piece of shit religion with you. You serve no purpose other than to divide and destroy! Eat pig shit Mohammed!

Anonymous said...

And the sleeping preach to to the sleeping...

I'm still waiting for the day when outside forces arrive on the scene to educate people on the fact that all religious organizations and religions are false and are merely tools of the elite to create strife and division among people.

All the crap developed around "prophets" of any group is deliberately misinterpreted bullshit designed to control the beliefs and behavior of people. It's time to put all this religious crap behind us and move into a new age of truth and transparency.

We are now moving into a new age. It is an age wherein duality has no place and the ancient war of good vs. evil is replaced by the the knowledge that all is one. We are all one as is everything around us and no individual, group, or belief system has a lock on the truth. Indeed the truth precludes such divisions and a search inside the self will find God and the sure knowledge that such divisions truly do not exist.

The fact that the various groups fight and squabble among one another is a sure sign that none of them have reached a state of true enlightenment. Come to the light and all will be made clear and the darkness will recede.

Michael Cecil said...

The reality of the situation is this:

The media *will not allow* the publicizing of either the Truth about the Doctrine of "resurrection" or the Truth about Mohammed. And this is the source of the conflicts between Jews, Christians and Muslims.

Mohammed was Elijah and John the Baptist 'raised from the dead'; while the Doctrine of "resurrection" is similar to the Buddhist Doctrine of 'Rebirth'.

This is the way that the Muslim religious 'authorities' should respond to such insults against Islam and Mohammed.

But the problem is they really have NO more Knowledge about the Teaching of Mohammed than the Christian theologians have about the Teaching of Jesus, or the rabbis have of the Teaching of Isaiah (who was the first prophet to use the term "resurrection" in the monotheistic context).

Michael Cecil

Anonymous said...

Well soon the USA will be using Canadian laws.
Racists and haters will be tracked down and dealt with.
get use to it.
2008 the usa will claim bankruptcy
between Sept to Dec
2009 the USA Govt will have no funds to continue functioning.

2010 the NAU will be enacted.

You may as well get use to the fact that the constitution is toast
you will live under Canadian laws and learn to like it or be rounded up and sent to the rex 84 where there are huge furncase for the final solution of haters and racists
concentration camps all across America.

riots and even Civil war may break out.
Marshal law will be implemented.

That is what was discussed at the
secret meeting of congress in March 2008
only the fourth time in the history
of The USA such secret meetings of congress has taken place.

those are harsh realities.

I suggest you get rid of all racism and hate now under Canadian laws you will be tracked down if you do not shape up!

Anonymous said...

Get acting lessons; for all the effort, you can still smell all your Zionism. Let me guess, you are also their servant on matters of Georgia

Anonymous said...

Its time for a good ole crusade. Time to take down the muslims who are the true infidels.

Anonymous said...

The Muslim's behave just like Jews when criticized. I guess it is in the Semite genes they both carry. They both behave as a spoiled five year old would.

Allen said...

They really are asking for too much. This is a free country. Voicing objections and DEMANDING are two different things. They say they'd object as much if it were about Jesus.
Let me demonstrate (You can find all these examples discussed freely without any Christians flipping out and threatening anyone):
The Pope is a pedophile!
Jesus was really a psychedelic mushroom!
Jesus was married.
Jesus didn't really die on the cross.
Moses is simply a legend -- a confused story about the followers of Aknaten.
See? Ideas. Just stupid ideas. No "gods" were harmed in the making of those ideas. Get over your damn selves. God does not need your puny help in defending himself. :-)

Anonymous said...

The Muslim's behave just like Jews when criticized. I guess it is in the Semite genes they both carry. - The Israelis do 'belong' in Georgia - 'Kezerashvili' which translates in the Georgian language to ‘child-of-the-Kezer(khazar)’ - No genetic relation between Khazarish Jews and Semites/Arabs.

Christopher Logan said...

Jews do not act like Muslims when they get criticized. Jews get criticized all the time and they do not go around starting riots and killing people in return.

Crop Watcher said...

You folks in Michigan had better wake up to your Muslim problem pretty quickly !!! You will have an overwhelming problem before you know it.....something that, pretty soon, you may not be able to handle at all. Other States can help you now, but not much later.

Christopher Logan said...

Crop watcher,
If we do not end Muslim immigration I believe that we are going to lose. As they will never stop pushing.

Christopher Logan said...

When they start calling for their own state with in Michigan, that is when the real trouble will start.

They follow the same pattern across the world. They move into non-Islamic countries and then as their population goes up, they start dictating terms.

Christopher Logan said...

Allen,
This is just the beginning of their demands.

Christopher Logan said...

rl esteves,
Oh ye great liberal elitist. Please pass on your mighty wisdom to us lowly peasants and tell us how we are wrong for speaking out against being dominated by Islam.

I humbly await your wisdom.

Anonymous said...

Hilarious. They are leveling the same charges of trying to conquer the world and censuring free speech which the zionists and the ADL have been accused of. In this case it might be true, but that is sort of beside the point as media censure is something that is obvious in major media these days with only a few corporations owning most of the major airwaves.
And why do people only look at the worst aspects of Islam and characterize the whole entire religion on the worst aspects of it? It is not a fair look at Islam. This is not to say that I personally like Islam of course. But even I think that a lot of things leveled at it are a bit unfair and tends to ignore the evils of society that are all around us that is non islamic.

Anonymous said...

I am ashamed at my fellow Americans and their idiocy and ignorance about Islam. It's like americans have become mindless little drones who just repeat what their BOOB TUBE tell them to think.

I am of arabic descent but I am Christian. I can tell you first hand that Muslims are peaceful people and it's only a handful of extremists that create the stereotype of a terrorist.

But I am sick and tired of the STUPIDITY I hear come from the mouths of my fellow Americans about arabs or Islam. Stop being drones and start thinking for yourselves

Christopher Logan said...

To the 2 anonymous posters above,
I would like for you to come back
and explain how I or others here who are speaking out against Islam are ignorant about Islam, because I have a feeling it is you guys who are ignorant.

1.Islam allows lying.
2.Islam calls for the extortion of non-Muslims.
2.Islam calls of the killing of non-Muslims.
4.Islam calls for the dominance of non-Muslims.

Is there something about these aspects that I am supposed to like? What is the point of the focusing on the "good" points of the Islam instead of these aspects? That is like finding out you have a life threatening disease and concentrating on how nice your hair looks. Mohammad himself was a terrorist, so are you telling me that Mohammad misinterpreted the religion he invented? The its only a "few" excuse is not even close to being true. Just read this article.

http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/05/its-only-fewthats-what-they-keep.html


BTW, I did my own studies and have read the Islamic scriptures, so I did not sit in front of FOX news and form my opinion. Since that is what you are implying.
I look forward to your response.

Anonymous said...

1.Islam allows lying.
2.Islam calls for the extortion of non-Muslims.
2.Islam calls of the killing of non-Muslims.
4.Islam calls for the dominance of non-Muslims.


Ummm... so? And what does that have to do with Islam? People lie regardless of their religion. People extort other people whether or not it is sanctioned by religion or not. The same is true for killing. As for #4, you could argue that certain people of certain races have that outlook on other people. Like the Japanese people or even Jewish people (who if they took they're writings seriously would look at other people like cattle). This is not a religious issue. Sure, people may use religion as an excuse for abuse and religion may make it easier or harder for abuse to occur, but the abuse still occurs with people. People make the religion, not the reverse. Religion influences the people. Look at the the islam in lebanon and indonesia for example, and look at it in saudi arabia, and you will see similarities and many differences between each. The same with christianity. Not everybody takes every verse of their writings seriously and not everybody joins a religion for religious purposes, as odd as it may seem. Some join it just to socialize.
I guess you think black people are more prone to commit physical acts of crime by the same type of "crime and ethics" via association. There is injustice in this ethnic or religious group therefore that ethnic or religious group must be at fault.
Why don't you associate the injustices with some other variable - like God for example, or humans, or semetic genes, or men in general. That seems just about as logical as associating it with Islam.

Christopher Logan said...

Those points I brought up have everything to do with Islam. They define Islam and I do not live in the lets excuse one act of bad behaviour by pointing out another act of bad behaviour world. The scriptures of Islam inspire Muslims to behave the way they do.
That is a fact, so why would I associate the injustices with another variable? Oh, I forgot this was your attempt to get the focus off of Islam....

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said,


People make the religion, not the reverse. Religion influences the people. Look at the the islam in lebanon and indonesia for example, and look at it in saudi arabia, and you will see similarities and many differences between each.


The religion obviously makes the people. One only has to look at Islamic countries to see that. Your circular talk amounts to a big nothing.

Anonymous said...

"That is a fact, so why would I associate the injustices with another variable? Oh, I forgot this was your attempt to get the focus off of Islam...."

Yeah, that's right, put a motive when you can't argue that point off.
Guess, who wrote the Koran? Men did. Men with testosterone. Men who subjecated and raped women. It was testosterone that created the problem. See that variable? No of course you don't. You only see just Islam - pure black and white. When the world is so much more complex than that.
Notice that "Islam" became only a problem recently. In the 1960's we didn't have all this BS rules about boarding planes etc. And when terrorists acts did occur in the 70's, we blamed the countries, not the religion. But no, "countries" is just another variable...

And to the other anonymous poster.. if religion makes the individual, then why is Islam so different in different countries? Why is Islam in lebanon so liberal when compared to saudi arabia? Why is christianity now different than it was during the middle ages when it was much more strict? It is people interpretation of the religion, and how they view it in that role for society, that causes the problem.
That is what I mean that people make the religion. But obviously you need examples to see that. Or maybe you just wanted to look at the argument and point at foibles in it. I don't know.

Don't bother arguing unless you're going to start ad homoning, or assigning motive, ignoring my points, or calling me a "liberal". Cause you aren't going to win via logic over an argument that doesn't have its legs on right in the first place.

Christopher Logan said...

It is hard to get a point across to someone who just talks in circles and you obviously do have a motive, so save the con. According to Muslims the Koran is in God's words and mere man cannot change them. The Koran forms millions of Muslims and that is a fact. But I see you need to live in the thousand shades of gray area. This way you never have to face the harsh reality about Islam.
Islam has always been a problem and the only reason people are speaking out against it now, is because people have finally done rearch on Islam.

The Koran drives them like Mein Kemp drove the Nazis. This is very logical.

As for Islamic countries, sure their are differences in them. But the Islamic world has one thing in common and that is the persecution of Christians and Jews in their countries. The Islamic world and Islam are no friend to the freedoms of the West.

Pete said...

Anonymous said...
1.Islam allows lying.
2.Islam calls for the extortion of non-Muslims.
2.Islam calls of the killing of non-Muslims.
4.Islam calls for the dominance of non-Muslims.


Ummm... so? And what does that have to do with Islam?



This might be the most illogical thing that I have ever read.

Anonymous said...

It is hard to get a point across to someone who just talks in circles and you obviously do have a motive, so save the con.

Everybody who posts here has a motive. By that logic, everybody's posts here would be invalid.
Having a motive has nothing to do with the argument as a measure of its trueness or falsehood. The reason why that doesn't stand up to logic is that you can basically refute any argument that a person gives because you can claim that the poster has a motive. Even simple arguments such as 2+2=4 could be refuted if having a motive as an excuse against an argument was considered valid.

A lot of things make people do crazy things - the moon, alcohol, religion, lack of religion, food, work.. just about almost anything you can think of basically. Correlation is not the same thing as causation. You learn that in logic 101. If you can totally refute every single instance of every other variable that could be causing the "evils" with what you associate with Islam, then you could argue via logic that Islam was the cause of those evils. Otherwise, if you tried to write a paper in a basic philosophy class (and believe me, I have taken a college course philosophy class on what types of arguments were not valid and were. But you don't college to figure this out if you just look it up on the web or read a few books.) saying that Islam was the cause of all the violence in the world without eliminating other evidence and assumptions, you would not get a passing grade in the class.

Christopher Logan said...

I never said that everyone here has motive but it is obvious that you do. Most of your post goes back into your thousand shades of grey area, where no conclusion is ever reached. I really do not care what you were taught by liberal professors, as you are not the world decision maker on what is valid and what is not. So lose the liberal elitist attitude. I never said that Islam was the cause of all the worlds violence, but it is responsible for a lot of it. Violence is not the only problem that Islam brings to the world. Political Islam is even more dangerous to the freedoms of the West then potential suicide bombers are. There is a bottom line here. Muslims communities across the world continually show us on a daily basis that the two worlds do not mix. It is time to end Muslim immigration.

BTW, all your posts have concluded nothing, but a thousand shades of grey in your attempt to get the focus off of Islam. Them imposing, intimidating and killing in the name of their religion is very clear to those that live in the real world.

Christopher Logan said...

Ayatollah Khomeini

Khomeini accordingly delivered notorious rebuke to the Islam-is-a-religion-of-peace crowd: “Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies].... Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur’anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”

Anonymous said...

"I never said that everyone here has motive but it is obvious that you do.

I never said that you did. Please re-read what I wrote. And yes, everybody here does have a motive - whether to disprove me wrong, bash islam, bash the bashers, just to annoy, etc etc...


Most of your post goes back into your thousand shades of grey area, where no conclusion is ever reached. I really do not care what you were taught by liberal professors, as you are not the world decision maker on what is valid and what is not. So lose the liberal elitist attitude.

There you go.. start name calling. I knew it would happen. You can't refute my arguments so you start attacking my education. And no, it doesn't matter what the political beliefs of my professors were, or what any are - as "correlation is on the same thing as causation", is a basic, non-political, precept of logic.

I never said that Islam was the cause of all the worlds violence, but it is responsible for a lot of it.

I never said that you said that. The original post from you was bashing the evils caused by Islam, not all evils are caused by Islam. Two different arguments.

Violence is not the only problem that Islam brings to the world. Political Islam is even more dangerous to the freedoms of the West then potential suicide bombers are. There is a bottom line here. Muslims communities across the world continually show us on a daily basis that the two worlds do not mix. It is time to end Muslim immigration.

I have no problems ending immigration. That is a personal decision to be made by each country and involves many factors that are beyond the scope of this discussion. There are many other evils around the world that are caused by things other than Islam and I would argue are a greater threat than Islam. I would argue that a nuclear war by the US and Russia right now is a greater threat than what Islam is doing now. But a lot of this is just opinion, so not worth really arguing over since it really isn't logic.
Islam is not the problem. How people use it and interpret it might be. But if that is the case, then getting rid of Islam is not going to solve the problem. If you want to get rid of Islamic violence, then you need to stop lying to yourself and the world and stop the true causes of violence. The causes are often boiled down to money, power, and land. Religion and politics are just used as an excuse for such behavior - not usually the cause of it. And no, I don't mean making stuff up and putting words in other people's mouths claiming they "hate our freedoms" or what to establish a caliphate.
If I said that zionists were trying to take over the world, I would be called a nut and a conspiracy theorists. But saying Muslims, or certain Muslims, is apparently kosher in today's media.

Christopher Logan said...

Saying lose the liberal elitist attitude is not name calling.
There is nothing to refute as you have given NOTHING but opinion. Muslims citing their scriptures is the proof that Islam is the problem. Why are you so defensive of Islam, are you a Muslim? Lets not go into the interpretation argument. Because Mohammad himself was a terrorist. Are you saying that he misinterpreted the religion he invented? Islamic scriptures prove this.

http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/05/mo-who-were-you-terrorist-thats-who.html




Your goal of trying to get people to back off of Islam is not working.

Based on Koranic Verses, Interpretations, and Traditions, Muslim Clerics State: The Jews Are the Descendants of Apes, Pigs, And Other Animals
By: Aluma Solnick
Introduction
Depicting Jews – and sometimes also Zionists – as "the descendants of apes and pigs" is extremely widespread today in public discourse in the Arab and Islamic worlds.

For example, in a weekly sermon in April 2002, Al-Azhar Sheikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the highest-ranking cleric in the Sunni Muslim world, called the Jews "the enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs."[1]

In one of his sermons, Saudi sheikh Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis, imam and preacher at the Al-Haraam mosque – the most important mosque in Mecca – beseeched Allah to annihilate the Jews. He also urged the Arabs to give up peace initiatives with them because they are "the scum of the human race, the rats of the world, the violators of pacts and agreements, the murderers of the prophets, and the offspring of apes and pigs."[2]

"Read history," called Al-Sudayyis in another sermon, "and you will understand that the Jews of yesterday are the evil fathers of the Jews of today, who are evil offspring, infidels, distorters of [others'] words, calf-worshippers, prophet-murderers, prophecy-deniers... the scum of the human race 'whom Allah cursed and turned into apes and pigs...' These are the Jews, an ongoing continuum of deceit, obstinacy, licentiousness, evil, and corruption..."[3]

In a sermon at the Said Al-Jandoul mosque in Al-Taif, Saudi sheikh Ba'd bin Abdallah Al-Ajameh Al-Ghamidi explained that "the qualities of the Jews" were present at all times and in all places: "The current behavior of the brothers of apes and pigs, their treachery, violation of agreements, and defiling of holy places... is connected with the deeds of their forefathers during the early period of Islam – which proves the great similarity between all the Jews living today and the Jews who lived at the dawn of Islam."[4]

In an August 2001 sermon, Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, Palestinian Authority official and imam of the Sheikh Ijlin mosque, Gaza City's main mosque, called on the Palestinian people to forget their internal disagreements and turn all weapons against Jews: "lances must be directed at the Jews, the enemies of Allah, the nation accursed in Allah's book. Allah described [them] as apes and pigs, calf-worshipers, idol-worshippers..."[5]

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=sr&ID=SR01102


009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

Islamic terrorists are driven by the ideology of Islam, no matter how you want to spin it.

Christopher Logan said...

The Koran tells Muslims to follow the actions of Mohammad, who was a murderer, looter and pedophile.
The problem is that all of these actions go against the laws of the Western world.

uswa hasana means excellent model of conduct , meaning Mohammad's actions should be followed.



http://quranicteachings.co.uk/uswa-e-hasana.htm

Anonymous said...

Saying lose the liberal elitist attitude is not name calling.

You're doing it again. You're basically changing or taking what I said out of context so that imply that I said something which I originally didn't. I did not specifically say that, that statement was name calling. I was referring to your attack on my "liberal" education. Use some common sense.

And about the opinion part - WRONG.
I have shown through logic that correlation is not causation and that all you are doing is showing the absolute worst in Islam without showing that it is the cause of the worst that has come out of such violence that is often associated now a days to Islam.
You still have not discounted other variables/causes that may have caused such violence, and therefore your assertion is not logically proven.
All you do, is bring up details about what what was said in the Koran and other texts without first proving the assertion that Islam is the root cause of such violence. It's like the IRS saying you have to pay taxes because if you don't, we will give you more penalties. Regardless of whether or not there is an actual law that requires you to pay taxes on earned income.
And until you prove such an assertion, it doesn't matter how many ugly things you show to the world that are written in the Koran - they aren't proof that they are the root cause of such violence.

Christopher Logan said...

What can I tell you, I do not respect what liberal professors teach these days. You have not shown that I am wrong....not even close. I guess their behaviour is just a coincidence with their prophet being a war monger.

No one can prove anything to someone like you who will just talk in circles and COMPLELTY IGNORE that MUSLIMS cite their scriptures to justify their violence. The world has awoken to the ugly truth about Islam and whether you like it or not, our voice is getting louder and louder.

So are you a Muslim?

Christopher Logan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christopher Logan said...

Bottom line is Muslims are causing problems across the world and trying to force their way of life on non-Muslims across the world.
Let them stay where they belong in Islamic countries.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
1.Islam allows lying.
2.Islam calls for the extortion of non-Muslims.
2.Islam calls of the killing of non-Muslims.
4.Islam calls for the dominance of non-Muslims.


Ummm... so? And what does that have to do with Islam?


This is the dumbest liberal logic that I have ever seen. Talk about trying to change the focus.

Linda

cc la femme said...

If I said that zionists were trying to take over the world, I would be called a nut and a conspiracy theorists. But saying Muslims, or certain Muslims, is apparently kosher in today's media.

Ok, seems you are genuinely trying to make sense of it all and appears you are merely not very specialized in islamism (the ism is the key). Casual observation of it does not get close to the core problem nor close to the elements driving the current push by islam for power.

1st, I must say that "Awareness of Islamism" is definitely NOT kosher or even very common in the "media", at least for sure is almost taboo in the MainStream Media, digustingly so. While you may interpret some casual references to islam as "a lot", what we find in the MSM is only the tip of the iceberg - the meat, they are terrified to touch on.

My point is that those of us who deliberately dig deep, not just hear the "tip" in the media, do find it a great and rapidly growing danger .... already having success at limiting free speech even right in small town US of A yet.

Did you read the current news of this happening right in the UN, that criticizing islam is not allowed???? That news should be catastrophic to all of us in the West, liberals or consrves.

Above someone said that terrorism may not even be the greatest danger from it. This is correct, as by stealth islamism is making great strides to cool our awareness venues ..... "muzzling" is not an exageration.

Islamism has come alive in the past 2 decades, first Sh'ia (14 % of islam) "12verism" / (Armageddonism to be exact)revival scared the crap out of the Sunnis such that Sunnis (85% of islam) have gone into high gear everywhere in the world. It is my belief, strong belief, that this whole thing is NOT about us at all, rather about an inter-islam fight for power / control, and both sides are merely using us & Israel as excuses to fire up their own gang to command islam.

May I respectfully suggest a very appropos book, "The Sh'ia Revival" by Vali Nasr wherin an Iranian clearly explains the entire evolution of what is really transpiring here, starting as of 1979 when the shah fell to the religios zealots of 12verism. We have so much to learn and our pathetic leaders are letting us down daily, mainly because they do not clearly understand their enemy.

Gotta run for the moment, will try to get back to provide more on how the Sh'ia Armageddonists are driving the Sunnis, Al Q & the Muslim Brotherhood itself

Please allow there is much to this islamist thingy below the water, the tip of which is all we get to see unless we search for it all

chow for the moment, ....cclf

Anonymous said...

Anonymous(the "logical" thinker one) it's obivious the obfuscation of your argument that you don't want to discuss Islam & the trouble
& horror SOME Muslims are creating
( how many bombers does it take) but we were discussing "Creeping
Sharia"----pushing,pushing.Nobody should say anything against Islam.
Just like Islamic countries.....OFF WITH THEIR HEADS! But I digress--you are talking variables like the human condition, testosterone,etc. Generalities. Sure humans in general are prone to violance thats
true so maybe that's it.Just good ol' human nature-------except the bomb throwers are Muslims lately
The civilians-killers are Muslims
AND THEY say they are doing it in
the name of Mohammad & Islam---just
doing what their religion tells them to do. The Bible says "An
eye for an eye.." but do you see
any Jews or Christians poking out eyes?(their human too) Deal with
the subject not variables.(I know about them too.) This isn't a theoretical analysis. It's real life---our way of life & we're
ready to defend it,any way we can.
IDAWN

cc la femme said...

............. Deal with
the subject not variables.(I know about them too.) This isn't a theoretical analysis. It's real life---our way of life & we're
ready to defend it,any way we can.



IDawn - extremely well put!!! You speak for many of us who know what they are up to & how they operate.

cclf

CKAinRedStateUSA said...

Islam is a violent political movement shrouded in so-called religiosity.

I know an Egyptian doctor, a Coptic Christian, who tells me of the discrimmination he's had in hospitals in which there were Muslim MDs, including the one in our local town.

Why?

Because he said that they know that he knows who and what Islam really is, given that he was raised and attended college in Egypt.

It's not just the Islamofascists who must be stopped, it's this cancer of Islam that spreads.

If they wish to enjoy the freedoms of our country, then so be it, if they can fit into them.

If not, they can return to whence they came. Now.

And this is precisely one reason that someone such as Barack Obama, or Barry Soetoro, or whatever his name is, is the wrong choice, should he actually be nominated.

It's not that I think he is Muslim. I dont' know. But I also don't think he's more than a CINO, a Christian in name only, given his all-paths-lead-to-God statement and championship infanticide.

It's that I don't see that he has the steel in his spine, or what passes for a spine in him, to stand up for the majority.

He, like liberals, Marxists and Demockacrats in Congress, lack the will to do anything but capitulate freedom.

Big Gay Al said...

The basic problem with Islam is it hasn't evolved the way Christianity and Judaism have. Islam is stuck, somewhere in the Middle ages, or maybe even further back than that. The Imams need to wake up and smell the capucino. We're in the 21st century now, they need to realize that and join the rest of the world.

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